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Thread: ProModified question

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    Default ProModified question

    About the regulations - it seems to me that the rules are laid out for a "Spider" with some sheet metal slapped on and not for "improved modified vehicels" as stated in 3.1.2 of the technical regulations.

    Where is this going? Improved Modifieds or downgraded prototypes?
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    Good question .....

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    Avdanka biltrialfører Tommy's Avatar
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    In Scaninavia where this class has started it has always been a class for downgraded Prototypes, early name was "classic" for the oldfashion Prototypes without rear wheel steering, but a lot of things has happend with the Prototypeclass the last ten years...

    Tha Promodified class started up as a realy free class, nearly everything was allowed, the last few years we (Eurotrial committee) have tried to find the best solution for the Promodified class, and as it is now we think is the best way of doing it. Im always glad for suggestions so if you have a better way of doing it please post here or send it to me as a Mail or PM.

    I have always ment that the Promodified class should drive in Modified track, then the most extreme cars would not have that big advantage
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    OK, but in the regulations 3.1.2 it is stated that they should be improved modifieds ..?

    My suggestion would be to keep the definition (body, frame, homologation) of the modifieds and allow all suspension and driveline modifications, mods to the body just for opening the wheel wells in front and the so called "competition cut" of the rear wheel wells and no need to cover the tires.

    The class you meant should be called Proto1 for prototypes without rear steer and rename the original one to Proto2 for prototypes with rear steer.

    This way Mod and ProMod could share 1 track and P1 and P2 can share 1 track and all discussions about the PM class would be put to an end.

    BTW, is E85 tretaed as "ordinary fuel"? How about LPG?
    Last edited by SldgHmmr; 12-27-2011 at 10:27.
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    Any suggestions about that? Anybody?
    if money is an issue ... do it right the first time .... poor people can't afford to be cheap
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    E85 is absolutely regular fuel, I dont like idea that someone drives with LPG.
    Ok, lpg is low pressure gas and make no real danger in that whay, but its hevier than air so leaks may cause real danger in low areas and gas is easier to flame than liquid fuels. Lpg may allso self fire if container gets hard hits!

    Junde

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    E85 is way more dangerous than LPG, you're wrong. And in no way is it ordinary fuel, you can't get it at any gas station here in germany. You can get LPG.
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    Avdanka biltrialfører Tommy's Avatar
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    I would really like a explanation to that Joachim?? I would for exempel say that ardenary petrol is more dangerous than E85 in most ways...
    Tommy Olsen
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    That is not the question, i said LPG is less dangerous then E85, the old saga of detonating LPG containers is wrong and everybody knows this.

    LPG is way more common than E85, this is why i ask.

    What about the other suggestions? I know that most of the other countries don't agree with your definition of PM.
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    OK, read this regarding E85

    Quote Originally Posted by National Rewnewable Energy Laboratory, April 2006, US Department of Energy
    Fuel ethanol fires require specific equipment, materials, and training. Recent testing of fire-fighting agents sponsored by the Ethanol Emergency Response Coalition using the UL 162 test methodology revealed that conventional gasoline fire-fighting methods and chemicals are not likely to be effective on ethanol-fueled fires. Only foams containing an alcohol-resistant polymer should be used, and only foams classified as AR-AFFF passed all UL requirements.
    So there is a big safety concern using E85 in competitions where spilling of fuel and resulting fires can occur.
    Last edited by SldgHmmr; 12-29-2011 at 10:11.
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    Avdanka biltrialfører Tommy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    OK, read this regarding E85



    So there is a big safety concern using E85 in competitions where spilling of fuel and resulting fires can occur.
    This is not relevant at all, all competitions I have attended to uses Powder and/or CO2 both is as effective on Ethanol as it is on Petrol or even Diesel.
    There is a problem using foam on any alcehol becouse you ned a special foam like you say, but witch offroad competiton have you been on that has foam equipment as theire main extuinguisher??, in some motorsport you will find foam used as a preventer on case of spills so it will not ignite, but else, Powder will stopp fires in the best possible way, partly also with CO2 that some uses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    What about the other suggestions? I know that most of the other countries don't agree with your definition of PM.
    we have trough the last 5-6 years every year had a big discusion about the PM class and where it is going, and the regulation as it is to day is what we think is the best compromise, to gat as many of todays cars as possible to rit inside the regulation.

    The regulation is made by the Eurotrial Commitee, that contains of Teamleaders from the partcipating countrys, this year 13 countrys on the meeting. majority will decide.
    Tommy Olsen
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    OK, this is going nowhere. Why do you even ask for suggestions if you don't want to discuss them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    E85 is way more dangerous than LPG, you're wrong. And in no way is it ordinary fuel, you can't get it at any gas station here in germany. You can get LPG.
    And in Sweden you can get E85 at every gasstation, but LPG only exists on a few stations...

    But that doesn't matter. E85 is NOT allowed in Eurotrial... And it's the same with LPG...
    Last edited by Lasse suzicán; 12-29-2011 at 20:56.
    // Lasse
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    OK, that is what i wanted to hear, so E85 is NOT ordinary fuel, thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasse suzicán View Post
    E85 is NOT allowed in Eurotrial...
    And how are you going to check that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    OK, but in the regulations 3.1.2 it is stated that they should be improved modifieds ..?

    My suggestion would be to keep the definition (body, frame, homologation) of the modifieds and allow all suspension and driveline modifications, mods to the body just for opening the wheel wells in front and the so called "competition cut" of the rear wheel wells and no need to cover the tires.

    The class you meant should be called Proto1 for prototypes without rear steer and rename the original one to Proto2 for prototypes with rear steer.

    This way Mod and ProMod could share 1 track and P1 and P2 can share 1 track and all discussions about the PM class would be put to an end.

    BTW, is E85 tretaed as "ordinary fuel"? How about LPG?


    There has been a big discusion the late few years with direction we want to go with this class, I was the one who suggested we make a class betwen Proto and Modified, since we ahd a class like that in Finland and Norway, and in the beginning me and Jare Salonen from Finland made the regulation for the class, there where many cars that could attend, since the regulation was pretty free on most of the points, after a few years people started to stretch the rules and we had to make it more strict, as it is from 2012 we think we have made a good comprimise, it has been suggested that we go the way that you suggested Joachim, but it would in realitymowe most of todays cars from Promodified to Proto, since very few are built like you suggest and for most of them its impossible to convert them back.... Hopefully more people will come with suggestions in this thread...
    Tommy Olsen
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Max View Post
    And how are you going to check that?
    If you know how E85 smells it is really easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    There has been a big discusion the late few years with direction we want to go with this class, I was the one who suggested we make a class betwen Proto and Modified, since we ahd a class like that in Finland and Norway, and in the beginning me and Jare Salonen from Finland made the regulation for the class, there where many cars that could attend, since the regulation was pretty free on most of the points, after a few years people started to stretch the rules and we had to make it more strict, as it is from 2012 we think we have made a good comprimise, it has been suggested that we go the way that you suggested Joachim, but it would in realitymowe most of todays cars from Promodified to Proto, since very few are built like you suggest and for most of them its impossible to convert them back.... Hopefully more people will come with suggestions in this thread...
    I agree, but in reality they ARE protos (only without rear steer). Why not put them where they belong - in the prototype class, and set up a penalty for use of rear steer with maybe 6 points per section where rear steer is at least used 1 time (like they do in the US at rockcrawling)? This would give them a fair chance and would make the prototype class more interesting if you don't want to split the P class.

    I talked to a few people here from Germany, Switzerland and Austria. They think like me - the step up from Modified to ProMod is too big. You add rear steer and you are competitive in the P class but to be competitive in the PM you have to build a whole new car with completely different parts - like a Prototype. Just upgrading your Modified does not work.

    Don't undrstand me wrong, i'm not argueing for me or my car, i'm in the process of building a new one so i don't care for my person. Just spreading out ideas how to do it (maybe) better and make this easier.

    What do you think about the rear steer penalty in general? Would make the P class more interesting in any way
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    What do you think about the rear steer penalty in general? Would make the P class more interesting in any way
    i do not agree with you. the courses in the us are completely different... bigger areas, bigger gates, different terrain....

    i think it´s not possible to change the rules like that in europe.

    sometimes i use the rearsteer more than the front steering...



    the easier way is to put the "promod-spiders" in the p-class...




    if the technical inspection apply the rules, cars like this would not fit in PM

    where does this one look like a serial car???????????????


    this is a spider with a radiator grill that maybe should look like a jeep grill...

    in my opinion theses cars are the way to go:




    Last edited by xtreme5304; 12-31-2011 at 13:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    If you know how E85 smells it is really easy.

    I now how it smells but i dont think "you" do, if so, start using "your" nose's..

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    Quote Originally Posted by xtreme5304 View Post
    i do not agree with you. the courses in the us are completely different... bigger areas, bigger gates, different terrain....

    i think it´s not possible to change the rules like that in europe.

    sometimes i use the rearsteer more than the front steering...



    the easier way is to put the "promod-spiders" in the p-class...




    if the technical inspection apply the rules, cars like this would not fit in PM

    where does this one look like a serial car???????????????


    this is a spider with a radiator grill that maybe should look like a jeep grill...

    in my opinion theses cars are the way to go:




    I agree with you Marlon, it is easy to say what kind of cars we would like to have in PM, the problem is how to make the rule so we get what we want... its always someone that will twek the rules more or less..
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    the existing rules are not "so" bad...

    but they must be strictly adhered!!!! here´s the problem!

    the rules say, the pm cars must look like a car!!!!

    in my opinion a sheet metal with headlight stickers doesn´t make a promod look like a car...

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    Avdanka biltrialfører Tommy's Avatar
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    For 2012 we have changed the rules, "Must look like" is not good terms to use in a regulation.... and there is a lot of eally small cars that it could look like, so hopefully it will now be easyer for the marshalls to decide...
    Tommy Olsen
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtreme5304 View Post
    i do not agree with you. the courses in the us are completely different... bigger areas, bigger gates, different terrain....

    i think it´s not possible to change the rules like that in europe.
    You have never been to a rockcrawling competition, don't you? There is no big difference to what we do technically. Try once not to use rear steer but the steering brakes, then count the points for using it against your backup points - there is no big difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    I agree with you Marlon, it is easy to say what kind of cars we would like to have in PM, the problem is how to make the rule so we get what we want... its always someone that will twek the rules more or less..
    Yes, that is true, this is why the rules should be more exact. But, as you stated earlier, this would move most of those PM-Spiders out of the class. But this is because you allowed them earlier to tweak the rules. Now you don't want to go back but it was (as i was told) never intended to be a class for spiders with "some part of body". Maybe there was a lot of miscommunication in the past but this needs to be clarified. I'm able to put a real prototype car in the PM class at the moment with the body definition as it is now.

    So, at first, why don't you specify what YOU want it to be? Do you want it to be a spider class without reaar steer and some type of body or the sort of car that Marlon sees?

    I think i already know the answer because if you choose Marlon's definition those spider type cars are ruled out.
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    Avdanka biltrialfører Tommy's Avatar
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    US rock crawling comps its a another thing than the European trial comps, they have a lot more time in the sections, normaly they drive slower, they also have spotters outside the cars and winches so ofcourse its different a lot...


    What about this car:

    Name:  runar.jpg
Views: 282
Size:  77.2 KB

    Original LJ dors fits right in the dooropening...

    To calss up a car from Promodified to Proto because the hedlight does not look good enough sounds starnge to me.... it has nothing to do with how competetive the car is at all... and I think the Yellow Promod Spider looks like a Jeep, its all about who is looking at it???
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