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Thread: ProModified question

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    Attachment 77394

    Original LJ dors fits right in the dooropening...

    To calss up a car from Promodified to Proto because the hedlight does not look good enough sounds starnge to me.... it has nothing to do with how competetive the car is at all... and I think the Yellow Promod Spider looks like a Jeep, its all about who is looking at it???
    ... and this is exactly the problem we have, it depends on who is looking at it, for me it's a prototype with a hood and a front slapped on. In the regulations it says they must be "easy identified as a serial produced vehicle" and none of those two can be - by a spectator - identified as a Jeep or a LJ.

    They should be classed up because they are prototypes, not because of a headlights appearance, those don't meet 3.1.2 where it says "improved modified vehicles". These are not a result of an improvement of an existing serial produced car!
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  2. #27
    Avdanka biltrialfører Tommy's Avatar
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    so after your opinion you mean that a promofidified car should have a serial produced chassis and a serial produced boddy?? and the boddy must correspond to the chassis??
    Tommy Olsen
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  3. #28
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    Wouldn't that be the modified class? There you have restrictions regarding chassis and body, that they should correspond and it should be a serial car.

    So Promod would be just a modified car, but with no restriction regarding suspension?
    Mikael Berberg - KNA Telemark
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    so after your opinion you mean that a promofidified car should have a serial produced chassis and a serial produced boddy?? and the boddy must correspond to the chassis??
    Yes, this is what most of the other nations/teamleaders/competitors think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
    Wouldn't that be the modified class? There you have restrictions regarding chassis and body, that they should correspond and it should be a serial car.

    So Promod would be just a modified car, but with no restriction regarding suspension?
    Yes, no suspension restrictions, no driveline restrictions, original body and frame, just the ability to open the wheel wells as needed and modify the wheel base, suspension and drivetrain (engine, trans, t-case, axles).
    if money is an issue ... do it right the first time .... poor people can't afford to be cheap
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  5. #30
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    If you want a class for those older spiders without rear steer create a P1 class for prototypes without rear steer and rename the existing P class to P2 (prototypes with rear steer). This would close the gap between Modifieds and Proto and help with the definition of the classes.
    if money is an issue ... do it right the first time .... poor people can't afford to be cheap
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  6. #31
    Avdanka biltrialfører Tommy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    Yes, this is what most of the other nations/teamleaders/competitors think.
    Im glad to disguess this with you Joackim, but this statment is not correct remember that I talk to teamleaders all the time!

    You are actually talking about making a new class, becouse there is not many trailcars that will fit into you thoughts...
    Tommy Olsen
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  7. #32
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    More than you may think
    if money is an issue ... do it right the first time .... poor people can't afford to be cheap
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  8. #33
    Obeskrivbar Lasse suzicán's Avatar
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    Actually ...
    What is the problem?
    Is it the writing "improved modified vehicels" in the rules, or they may build their own frame and body???

    And in Sweden, who have Pro-Mod (we called it Classic) since 2002, was the class meant to be offered for those prototypes that became obsolete when Lars Dahl built his first "Spider" ...

    And on the meeting have every Teamleader his/her chance to argue against the evolve of the classes, but the last year we all been increasingly agree on the direction in which the class will be developed.
    Last edited by Lasse suzicán; 01-01-2012 at 19:36.
    // Lasse
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  9. #34
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    The problem is - own chassis, own body = Prototype, they have nothing in common with an improved modified as stated in 3.1.2 (did someone ever read this?). They are prototypes without rear steer and just because you don't name it prototype doesn't make them an improved modified vehicle because Modifieds have to have the original (modified) body and the original (modified) frame.

    Currently you are mixing up the regulations to meet the spiders. Lets take the doorbars - who needs them if you have your body from the bottom up to the belt line as per 3.7.2.3? If you have a full body vehicle with half doors - who needs a door bar? Yes, those spiders, but they don't meet the regulations anyway because the body is not present up to the belt line. BTW, have you ever tried to put a door bar in a YJ or TJ without moving the seats off their original location by using sport seats for 4-point harness? I tried - it's impossible.

    Don't understand me wrong, i'm not fighting against the spiders but i'm speaking for a lot of drivers who want this to be clarified. Also most of the officials here in the south don't see this class represent what they thought it would be.

    I don't care, i'm building a new car anyway (Ultra 4 atyle) without rear steer for go-fast-stuff, just need to make things clear.
    if money is an issue ... do it right the first time .... poor people can't afford to be cheap
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    Lasse, i built a vehicle last year to meet PM regulations and to meet my understanding of what i was told the class should represent.

    Tell me what you think about it. Would this pass tech at the eurotrial?

    Technical data:
    Engine Chevy Big Block 489 cui, fuel injected, approx 650 HP
    TH 400
    ATLAS II
    Dana 60 front Dana 70 rear
    Coilover suspension 14" travel
    double triangulated 4-link f/r
    Antirock Sway Bar f/r
    Body stock Jeep YJ, front and rear wheel wells opened
    wheelbase stretched to 168 cm
    Sabelt 3" wide 4-point harness
    40x13.5-17 Goodyear MT/R Kevlar
    17 x 9 Rock Monster Wheels
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    if money is an issue ... do it right the first time .... poor people can't afford to be cheap
    http://de.4x4-garage.com

  11. #36
    Avdanka biltrialfører Tommy's Avatar
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    One thing we totaly agree on, the Promodified had developed in a totaly different way that we thought, from beeing a low budget class where you could built whatever you like (nearly) the class have developed fast into very spesialized competition cars, that is absolutely not low budget, and If I saw what was going to come ten years ago, we for sure would have done something different, but making a new class is not on the table at the moment, and Promodified has filled up a gap between Modified and Prototype.
    Tommy Olsen
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  12. #37
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    I'm out of Trial but I think it's weird that in a competition like Eurotrial there should not be a class for a racecar built without rear steer??
    If you don't want to build your own race car, we have Original, Standard and Modified class!!!
    Pål Blesvik
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  13. #38
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    Agreed, but we are missing then the logical step between Modifieds an ProMods like i described earlier, the modified with optional suspension, drivetrain and wheelbase. This class is more logical than a Proto without rear steer (which is easy to accomplish from existing Prototypes).

    @Lasse
    Please answer my question, will this YJ pass tech without a doorbar?
    if money is an issue ... do it right the first time .... poor people can't afford to be cheap
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  14. #39
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    Now will maybe somone think that i'm mean, but i'm not.

    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    Don't understand me wrong, i'm not fighting against the spiders but i'm speaking for a lot of drivers who want this to be clarified. Also most of the officials here in the south don't see this class represent what they thought it would be.

    I don't care, i'm building a new car anyway (Ultra 4 atyle) without rear steer for go-fast-stuff, just need to make things clear.
    Actually, it is clear. Unfortunately you have only read: improved modified in 3.1.2
    You have to read the regulations, and read what's really is writen there.
    It has always been free frame in PM.
    The only requirement of the body is that it must look like a serial car. Not that it must be a serial body...

    I'l paste some writing from ET-regulations 2007:

    3.7 TRIAL GROUP PM PROMODIFIED
    General information
    vehicles should have 2 axles and 4wd. The vehicles body should be identified as a serial produced vehicle. The construction of the Chassis is free.
    Use of equipment that are not written in this rules and that will make the vehicle more competitive is forbidden.
    3.7.1. Chassis
    3.7.1.1 Chassis and/or frame
    Free of will

    3.7.6.1 Body
    The body should be recognized as a serial produced vehicle. The length should be at least from axle to axle.
    Hood, body sides, wings front and rear should be present.


    Thats 5 years ago...
    And the rules are almost exacly the same today. So if someone have build a car the past 5 years and thougt that they must have a original frame and body, it is they who havn't read the rules....

    Sorry, but thats a fact...
    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    The problem is - own chassis, own body = Prototype,
    As i answered above. The rules have been exactly the same for minimun 5 years...
    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    they have nothing in common with an improved modified as stated in 3.1.2
    Then the problem is accuality that it's writen "modified" in 3.1.2
    If i take away "modified" and only write "improved" there. Will that be better?
    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    (did someone ever read this?).
    Yes.
    I write this shit, so...
    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    They are prototypes without rear steer
    OK!
    The differeences are not that big, but there arre some more.
    Active suspension, bigger tires, no wings, tires have not to be covered by flared wings, no rear wheel steering, one-seaters are some.
    And of course the body...
    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    Modifieds have to have the original (modified) body and the original (modified) frame.
    It's just that it's wrong here...
    You may NOT modify the frame in modified. You can only modify the brackets for enginge, gearbox, transferbox, exhaust and cut away the fastenings for yhe bumpers. Thats all....
    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    Lets take the doorbars - who needs them if you have your body from the bottom up to the belt line as per 3.7.2.3? If you have a full body vehicle with half doors - who needs a door bar?
    PM don't need doors. And have never need it either. Therefore, the PM must have doorbars.
    Last edited by Lasse suzicán; 01-02-2012 at 22:16.
    // Lasse
    Ordförande i Trialförarföreningen - Sverige. Teknisk chef - Eurotrial.

    All 4 wheels must participate, lock up your axles.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    Lasse, i built a vehicle last year to meet PM regulations and to meet my understanding of what i was told the class should represent.

    Tell me what you think about it. Would this pass tech at the eurotrial?

    Technical data:
    Engine Chevy Big Block 489 cui, fuel injected, approx 650 HP
    TH 400
    ATLAS II
    Dana 60 front Dana 70 rear
    Coilover suspension 14" travel
    double triangulated 4-link f/r
    Antirock Sway Bar f/r
    Body stock Jeep YJ, front and rear wheel wells opened
    wheelbase stretched to 168 cm
    Sabelt 3" wide 4-point harness
    40x13.5-17 Goodyear MT/R Kevlar
    17 x 9 Rock Monster Wheels
    I suppose it's your car on the picture.
    And Yes. Allmost all the equipment you said above is allowed in Eurotrial, but i think it would be a little difficult to drive "soft" with 650 HP.
    I'm not sure about the tires. Max 1000mm and I don't know the exact size of them. You have to measure them...
    If your rollcage is build after the regulations, you have door-bars and the tires size is under 1000mm it would be fine...
    Last edited by Lasse suzicán; 01-02-2012 at 21:54.
    // Lasse
    Ordförande i Trialförarföreningen - Sverige. Teknisk chef - Eurotrial.

    All 4 wheels must participate, lock up your axles.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    Agreed, but we are missing then the logical step between Modifieds an ProMods like i described earlier, the modified with optional suspension, drivetrain and wheelbase.
    Drivetrain is already quite free in Mod. The only lilmitation is the type of transfer who must be as serial.
    The wheelbase. If you are going to change the wheelbase you must start modify the body because you can't move the axles without cut more than 100 mm in the wheelarches...
    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    @Lasse
    Please answer my question, will this YJ pass tech without a doorbar?
    I have answered it. I'm only here on the evenings...


    BTW: There is one more big difference between Mod and PM.
    Modified hav free size of the tires...
    Last edited by Lasse suzicán; 01-02-2012 at 22:10.
    // Lasse
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    All 4 wheels must participate, lock up your axles.

  17. #42
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    OK, here are another questions - just to clarify.

    How about IFS - is independent suspension treated as an axle? In the rules it says 2 axles .....

    What about a rear or mid engine?
    if money is an issue ... do it right the first time .... poor people can't afford to be cheap
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  18. #43
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    independent suspension should be allowed!

    there are several cars with independent suspension as standard, which may also start in all other classes! (lada, vitara, ml, etc.)

  19. #44
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    Syntes promod kasen blei ødelakt da de tok den ut av gul løype. Når de sente promod i svart løype med bare store stein så ble det meningstløst å kjøre med rette aksler. Nå MÅ en kjøre med portaler for å henge med. Den skulle blit i gult spor og enn skulle løsnet litt på karoserikravet. Regelen i deg blir jo en mod bil med portaler. Nå er det strenge karosserikrav i orginal, standar og modifiert så da skulle det vert lettere krav i promod så er det fritt i protto. Trenger flere enn en klasse som det ikke er strenge krav til karosseri i ET sammenheng
    Beklager men er ingen reser på å skrive engelsk. kan noen oversette dette
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronny View Post
    Syntes promod kasen blei ødelakt da de tok den ut av gul løype. Når de sente promod i svart løype med bare store stein så ble det meningstløst å kjøre med rette aksler. Nå MÅ en kjøre med portaler for å henge med. Den skulle blit i gult spor og enn skulle løsnet litt på karoserikravet. Regelen i deg blir jo en mod bil med portaler. Nå er det strenge karosserikrav i orginal, standar og modifiert så da skulle det vert lettere krav i promod så er det fritt i protto. Trenger flere enn en klasse som det ikke er strenge krav til karosseri i ET sammenheng
    Beklager men er ingen reser på å skrive engelsk. kan noen oversette dette
    I believe that the Promod class was ruined when it was moved from Yellow to Black course. When transfering to black course with big rocks, it became impossible to drive with straight axels. Now you NEED to have portal axels to be competetive. The class should have stayed in the Yellow course, and the body requirement should have been "opened" up a bit.
    The requirement of today seems to require a modified car with portal axels.

    We have strick requirements for body in all the 3 lower classes( original, standard and modified) so there should be less strickt rules for PM and no rules for Proto. We need more than one class without strickt body regulation in ET.

    I hope this caught the point in your reply Ronny.
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  21. #46
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    Thanks, this is what i think too, seems i'm not alone ;)
    if money is an issue ... do it right the first time .... poor people can't afford to be cheap
    http://de.4x4-garage.com

  22. #47
    Obeskrivbar Lasse suzicán's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    OK, here are another questions - just to clarify.
    No problem...
    It's always better to ask before a build than after.
    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    How about IFS - is independent suspension treated as an axle? In the rules it says 2 axles .....
    Of course is a independent axle one axle.
    Take for example a VW Golf. It has one independent front axle, not two...
    Quote Originally Posted by SldgHmmr View Post
    What about a rear or mid engine?
    According to the rules today it's allowed. But maybe you have a good point there.
    As I know, there is no PM today with mid- or rear-enginge so we should maybe stop this possibility now. Before someone builds one...
    // Lasse
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  23. #48
    Obeskrivbar Lasse suzicán's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtreme5304 View Post
    independent suspension should be allowed!
    It is allowed so that's no problem
    // Lasse
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    All 4 wheels must participate, lock up your axles.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasse suzicán View Post
    As I know, there is no PM today with mid- or rear-enginge so we should maybe stop this possibility now. Before someone builds one...
    But that's what i plan to do. Why would you not allow mid engine or rear engine?
    if money is an issue ... do it right the first time .... poor people can't afford to be cheap
    http://de.4x4-garage.com

  25. #50
    Obeskrivbar Lasse suzicán's Avatar
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    Hmm!
    I think that I have to blame it on age or anything similar...
    I know one rear-engine-PM, and it's Swedish...
    // Lasse
    Ordförande i Trialförarföreningen - Sverige. Teknisk chef - Eurotrial.

    All 4 wheels must participate, lock up your axles.

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