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SldgHmmr
12-26-2011, 09:21
About the regulations - it seems to me that the rules are laid out for a "Spider" with some sheet metal slapped on and not for "improved modified vehicels" as stated in 3.1.2 of the technical regulations.

Where is this going? Improved Modifieds or downgraded prototypes?

WillyMog
12-26-2011, 14:18
Good question .....

Tommy
12-26-2011, 16:29
In Scaninavia where this class has started it has always been a class for downgraded Prototypes, early name was "classic" for the oldfashion Prototypes without rear wheel steering, but a lot of things has happend with the Prototypeclass the last ten years...

Tha Promodified class started up as a realy free class, nearly everything was allowed, the last few years we (Eurotrial committee) have tried to find the best solution for the Promodified class, and as it is now we think is the best way of doing it. Im always glad for suggestions so if you have a better way of doing it please post here or send it to me as a Mail or PM.

I have always ment that the Promodified class should drive in Modified track, then the most extreme cars would not have that big advantage

SldgHmmr
12-27-2011, 08:58
OK, but in the regulations 3.1.2 it is stated that they should be improved modifieds ..?

My suggestion would be to keep the definition (body, frame, homologation) of the modifieds and allow all suspension and driveline modifications, mods to the body just for opening the wheel wells in front and the so called "competition cut" of the rear wheel wells and no need to cover the tires.

The class you meant should be called Proto1 for prototypes without rear steer and rename the original one to Proto2 for prototypes with rear steer.

This way Mod and ProMod could share 1 track and P1 and P2 can share 1 track and all discussions about the PM class would be put to an end.

BTW, is E85 tretaed as "ordinary fuel"? How about LPG?

SldgHmmr
12-28-2011, 09:25
Any suggestions about that? Anybody?

junde
12-28-2011, 19:33
E85 is absolutely regular fuel, I dont like idea that someone drives with LPG.
Ok, lpg is low pressure gas and make no real danger in that whay, but its hevier than air so leaks may cause real danger in low areas and gas is easier to flame than liquid fuels. Lpg may allso self fire if container gets hard hits!

Junde

SldgHmmr
12-29-2011, 07:18
E85 is way more dangerous than LPG, you're wrong. And in no way is it ordinary fuel, you can't get it at any gas station here in germany. You can get LPG.

Tommy
12-29-2011, 07:48
I would really like a explanation to that Joachim?? I would for exempel say that ardenary petrol is more dangerous than E85 in most ways...

SldgHmmr
12-29-2011, 08:30
That is not the question, i said LPG is less dangerous then E85, the old saga of detonating LPG containers is wrong and everybody knows this.

LPG is way more common than E85, this is why i ask.

What about the other suggestions? I know that most of the other countries don't agree with your definition of PM.

SldgHmmr
12-29-2011, 09:03
OK, read this regarding E85


Fuel ethanol fires require specific equipment, materials, and training. Recent testing of fire-fighting agents sponsored by the Ethanol Emergency Response Coalition using the UL 162 test methodology revealed that conventional gasoline fire-fighting methods and chemicals are not likely to be effective on ethanol-fueled fires. Only foams containing an alcohol-resistant polymer should be used, and only foams classified as AR-AFFF passed all UL requirements.

So there is a big safety concern using E85 in competitions where spilling of fuel and resulting fires can occur.

Tommy
12-29-2011, 09:23
OK, read this regarding E85



So there is a big safety concern using E85 in competitions where spilling of fuel and resulting fires can occur.

This is not relevant at all, all competitions I have attended to uses Powder and/or CO2 both is as effective on Ethanol as it is on Petrol or even Diesel.
There is a problem using foam on any alcehol becouse you ned a special foam like you say, but witch offroad competiton have you been on that has foam equipment as theire main extuinguisher??, in some motorsport you will find foam used as a preventer on case of spills so it will not ignite, but else, Powder will stopp fires in the best possible way, partly also with CO2 that some uses.

Tommy
12-29-2011, 09:43
What about the other suggestions? I know that most of the other countries don't agree with your definition of PM.

we have trough the last 5-6 years every year had a big discusion about the PM class and where it is going, and the regulation as it is to day is what we think is the best compromise, to gat as many of todays cars as possible to rit inside the regulation.

The regulation is made by the Eurotrial Commitee, that contains of Teamleaders from the partcipating countrys, this year 13 countrys on the meeting. majority will decide.

SldgHmmr
12-29-2011, 12:13
OK, this is going nowhere. Why do you even ask for suggestions if you don't want to discuss them? :shaking:

Lasse suzicán
12-29-2011, 19:53
E85 is way more dangerous than LPG, you're wrong. And in no way is it ordinary fuel, you can't get it at any gas station here in germany. You can get LPG.
And in Sweden you can get E85 at every gasstation, but LPG only exists on a few stations...

But that doesn't matter. E85 is NOT allowed in Eurotrial... And it's the same with LPG...

SldgHmmr
12-30-2011, 07:02
OK, that is what i wanted to hear, so E85 is NOT ordinary fuel, thanks.

Mad Max
12-30-2011, 08:39
E85 is NOT allowed in Eurotrial...

And how are you going to check that?

Tommy
12-30-2011, 09:12
OK, but in the regulations 3.1.2 it is stated that they should be improved modifieds ..?

My suggestion would be to keep the definition (body, frame, homologation) of the modifieds and allow all suspension and driveline modifications, mods to the body just for opening the wheel wells in front and the so called "competition cut" of the rear wheel wells and no need to cover the tires.

The class you meant should be called Proto1 for prototypes without rear steer and rename the original one to Proto2 for prototypes with rear steer.

This way Mod and ProMod could share 1 track and P1 and P2 can share 1 track and all discussions about the PM class would be put to an end.

BTW, is E85 tretaed as "ordinary fuel"? How about LPG?



There has been a big discusion the late few years with direction we want to go with this class, I was the one who suggested we make a class betwen Proto and Modified, since we ahd a class like that in Finland and Norway, and in the beginning me and Jare Salonen from Finland made the regulation for the class, there where many cars that could attend, since the regulation was pretty free on most of the points, after a few years people started to stretch the rules and we had to make it more strict, as it is from 2012 we think we have made a good comprimise, it has been suggested that we go the way that you suggested Joachim, but it would in realitymowe most of todays cars from Promodified to Proto, since very few are built like you suggest and for most of them its impossible to convert them back.... Hopefully more people will come with suggestions in this thread...

SldgHmmr
12-31-2011, 09:35
And how are you going to check that?
If you know how E85 smells it is really easy.


There has been a big discusion the late few years with direction we want to go with this class, I was the one who suggested we make a class betwen Proto and Modified, since we ahd a class like that in Finland and Norway, and in the beginning me and Jare Salonen from Finland made the regulation for the class, there where many cars that could attend, since the regulation was pretty free on most of the points, after a few years people started to stretch the rules and we had to make it more strict, as it is from 2012 we think we have made a good comprimise, it has been suggested that we go the way that you suggested Joachim, but it would in realitymowe most of todays cars from Promodified to Proto, since very few are built like you suggest and for most of them its impossible to convert them back.... Hopefully more people will come with suggestions in this thread...
I agree, but in reality they ARE protos (only without rear steer). Why not put them where they belong - in the prototype class, and set up a penalty for use of rear steer with maybe 6 points per section where rear steer is at least used 1 time (like they do in the US at rockcrawling)? This would give them a fair chance and would make the prototype class more interesting if you don't want to split the P class.

I talked to a few people here from Germany, Switzerland and Austria. They think like me - the step up from Modified to ProMod is too big. You add rear steer and you are competitive in the P class but to be competitive in the PM you have to build a whole new car with completely different parts - like a Prototype. Just upgrading your Modified does not work.

Don't undrstand me wrong, i'm not argueing for me or my car, i'm in the process of building a new one so i don't care for my person. Just spreading out ideas how to do it (maybe) better and make this easier.

What do you think about the rear steer penalty in general? Would make the P class more interesting in any way :idea:

xtreme5304
12-31-2011, 10:45
What do you think about the rear steer penalty in general? Would make the P class more interesting in any way


i do not agree with you. the courses in the us are completely different... bigger areas, bigger gates, different terrain....

i think it´s not possible to change the rules like that in europe. :shaking:

sometimes i use the rearsteer more than the front steering...



the easier way is to put the "promod-spiders" in the p-class...

http://up.picr.de/9134817ncd.jpg


if the technical inspection apply the rules, cars like this would not fit in PM

where does this one look like a serial car???????????????
http://www.pirate4x4.no/trailreports/eurobefore11/ketil.jpg

this is a spider with a radiator grill that maybe should look like a jeep grill...

in my opinion theses cars are the way to go:

http://www.vdgv.net/albums2/album08/ET_CZ_T1_AA_171.jpg
http://www.vdgv.net/albums2/album08/ET_CZ_T1_AA_375.jpg
http://www.vdgv.net/albums2/album08/ET_CZ_T1_DL_32.jpg
http://www.vdgv.net/albums2/album08/ET_CZ_T1_DL_209.jpg

Mad Max
12-31-2011, 13:23
If you know how E85 smells it is really easy.




I now how it smells but i dont think "you" do, if so, start using "your" nose's..

Tommy
12-31-2011, 14:08
i do not agree with you. the courses in the us are completely different... bigger areas, bigger gates, different terrain....

i think it´s not possible to change the rules like that in europe. :shaking:

sometimes i use the rearsteer more than the front steering...



the easier way is to put the "promod-spiders" in the p-class...

http://up.picr.de/9134817ncd.jpg


if the technical inspection apply the rules, cars like this would not fit in PM

where does this one look like a serial car???????????????
http://www.pirate4x4.no/trailreports/eurobefore11/ketil.jpg

this is a spider with a radiator grill that maybe should look like a jeep grill...

in my opinion theses cars are the way to go:

http://www.vdgv.net/albums2/album08/ET_CZ_T1_AA_171.jpg
http://www.vdgv.net/albums2/album08/ET_CZ_T1_AA_375.jpg
http://www.vdgv.net/albums2/album08/ET_CZ_T1_DL_32.jpg
http://www.vdgv.net/albums2/album08/ET_CZ_T1_DL_209.jpg

I agree with you Marlon, it is easy to say what kind of cars we would like to have in PM, the problem is how to make the rule so we get what we want... its always someone that will twek the rules more or less..

xtreme5304
12-31-2011, 14:50
the existing rules are not "so" bad...

but they must be strictly adhered!!!! here´s the problem!

the rules say, the pm cars must look like a car!!!!

in my opinion a sheet metal with headlight stickers doesn´t make a promod look like a car...:shaking:

Tommy
12-31-2011, 14:57
For 2012 we have changed the rules, "Must look like" is not good terms to use in a regulation.... and there is a lot of eally small cars that it could look like, so hopefully it will now be easyer for the marshalls to decide...

SldgHmmr
01-01-2012, 08:39
i do not agree with you. the courses in the us are completely different... bigger areas, bigger gates, different terrain....

i think it´s not possible to change the rules like that in europe. :shaking:

You have never been to a rockcrawling competition, don't you? There is no big difference to what we do technically. Try once not to use rear steer but the steering brakes, then count the points for using it against your backup points - there is no big difference.

I agree with you Marlon, it is easy to say what kind of cars we would like to have in PM, the problem is how to make the rule so we get what we want... its always someone that will twek the rules more or less..
Yes, that is true, this is why the rules should be more exact. But, as you stated earlier, this would move most of those PM-Spiders out of the class. But this is because you allowed them earlier to tweak the rules. Now you don't want to go back but it was (as i was told) never intended to be a class for spiders with "some part of body". Maybe there was a lot of miscommunication in the past but this needs to be clarified. I'm able to put a real prototype car in the PM class at the moment with the body definition as it is now.

So, at first, why don't you specify what YOU want it to be? Do you want it to be a spider class without reaar steer and some type of body or the sort of car that Marlon sees?

I think i already know the answer because if you choose Marlon's definition those spider type cars are ruled out.

Tommy
01-01-2012, 09:45
US rock crawling comps its a another thing than the European trial comps, they have a lot more time in the sections, normaly they drive slower, they also have spotters outside the cars and winches so ofcourse its different a lot...


What about this car:

77394

Original LJ dors fits right in the dooropening...

To calss up a car from Promodified to Proto because the hedlight does not look good enough sounds starnge to me.... it has nothing to do with how competetive the car is at all... and I think the Yellow Promod Spider looks like a Jeep, its all about who is looking at it???

SldgHmmr
01-01-2012, 10:32
77394

Original LJ dors fits right in the dooropening...

To calss up a car from Promodified to Proto because the hedlight does not look good enough sounds starnge to me.... it has nothing to do with how competetive the car is at all... and I think the Yellow Promod Spider looks like a Jeep, its all about who is looking at it???
... and this is exactly the problem we have, it depends on who is looking at it, for me it's a prototype with a hood and a front slapped on. In the regulations it says they must be "easy identified as a serial produced vehicle" and none of those two can be - by a spectator - identified as a Jeep or a LJ.

They should be classed up because they are prototypes, not because of a headlights appearance, those don't meet 3.1.2 where it says "improved modified vehicles". These are not a result of an improvement of an existing serial produced car!

Tommy
01-01-2012, 10:52
so after your opinion you mean that a promofidified car should have a serial produced chassis and a serial produced boddy?? and the boddy must correspond to the chassis??

Mikael
01-01-2012, 11:02
Wouldn't that be the modified class? There you have restrictions regarding chassis and body, that they should correspond and it should be a serial car.

So Promod would be just a modified car, but with no restriction regarding suspension?

SldgHmmr
01-01-2012, 15:20
so after your opinion you mean that a promofidified car should have a serial produced chassis and a serial produced boddy?? and the boddy must correspond to the chassis??
Yes, this is what most of the other nations/teamleaders/competitors think.

Wouldn't that be the modified class? There you have restrictions regarding chassis and body, that they should correspond and it should be a serial car.

So Promod would be just a modified car, but with no restriction regarding suspension?
Yes, no suspension restrictions, no driveline restrictions, original body and frame, just the ability to open the wheel wells as needed and modify the wheel base, suspension and drivetrain (engine, trans, t-case, axles).

SldgHmmr
01-01-2012, 15:24
If you want a class for those older spiders without rear steer create a P1 class for prototypes without rear steer and rename the existing P class to P2 (prototypes with rear steer). This would close the gap between Modifieds and Proto and help with the definition of the classes.

Tommy
01-01-2012, 15:38
Yes, this is what most of the other nations/teamleaders/competitors think.


Im glad to disguess this with you Joackim, but this statment is not correct remember that I talk to teamleaders all the time!

You are actually talking about making a new class, becouse there is not many trailcars that will fit into you thoughts...

SldgHmmr
01-01-2012, 15:50
More than you may think :grinpimp:

Lasse suzicán
01-01-2012, 18:34
Actually ...
What is the problem?
Is it the writing "improved modified vehicels" in the rules, or they may build their own frame and body???

And in Sweden, who have Pro-Mod (we called it Classic) since 2002, was the class meant to be offered for those prototypes that became obsolete when Lars Dahl built his first "Spider" ...

And on the meeting have every Teamleader his/her chance to argue against the evolve of the classes, but the last year we all been increasingly agree on the direction in which the class will be developed.

SldgHmmr
01-02-2012, 07:59
The problem is - own chassis, own body = Prototype, they have nothing in common with an improved modified as stated in 3.1.2 (did someone ever read this?). They are prototypes without rear steer and just because you don't name it prototype doesn't make them an improved modified vehicle because Modifieds have to have the original (modified) body and the original (modified) frame.

Currently you are mixing up the regulations to meet the spiders. Lets take the doorbars - who needs them if you have your body from the bottom up to the belt line as per 3.7.2.3? If you have a full body vehicle with half doors - who needs a door bar? Yes, those spiders, but they don't meet the regulations anyway because the body is not present up to the belt line. BTW, have you ever tried to put a door bar in a YJ or TJ without moving the seats off their original location by using sport seats for 4-point harness? I tried - it's impossible.

Don't understand me wrong, i'm not fighting against the spiders but i'm speaking for a lot of drivers who want this to be clarified. Also most of the officials here in the south don't see this class represent what they thought it would be.

I don't care, i'm building a new car anyway (Ultra 4 atyle) without rear steer for go-fast-stuff, just need to make things clear.

SldgHmmr
01-02-2012, 08:09
Lasse, i built a vehicle last year to meet PM regulations and to meet my understanding of what i was told the class should represent.

Tell me what you think about it. Would this pass tech at the eurotrial?

Technical data:
Engine Chevy Big Block 489 cui, fuel injected, approx 650 HP
TH 400
ATLAS II
Dana 60 front Dana 70 rear
Coilover suspension 14" travel
double triangulated 4-link f/r
Antirock Sway Bar f/r
Body stock Jeep YJ, front and rear wheel wells opened
wheelbase stretched to 168 cm
Sabelt 3" wide 4-point harness
40x13.5-17 Goodyear MT/R Kevlar
17 x 9 Rock Monster Wheels

Tommy
01-02-2012, 08:09
One thing we totaly agree on, the Promodified had developed in a totaly different way that we thought, from beeing a low budget class where you could built whatever you like (nearly) the class have developed fast into very spesialized competition cars, that is absolutely not low budget, and If I saw what was going to come ten years ago, we for sure would have done something different, but making a new class is not on the table at the moment, and Promodified has filled up a gap between Modified and Prototype.

Blesvik
01-02-2012, 11:56
I'm out of Trial but I think it's weird that in a competition like Eurotrial there should not be a class for a racecar built without rear steer?? :shaking::shaking:
If you don't want to build your own race car, we have Original, Standard and Modified class!!!

SldgHmmr
01-02-2012, 12:33
Agreed, but we are missing then the logical step between Modifieds an ProMods like i described earlier, the modified with optional suspension, drivetrain and wheelbase. This class is more logical than a Proto without rear steer (which is easy to accomplish from existing Prototypes).

@Lasse
Please answer my question, will this YJ pass tech without a doorbar?

Lasse suzicán
01-02-2012, 20:45
Now will maybe somone think that i'm mean, but i'm not.


Don't understand me wrong, i'm not fighting against the spiders but i'm speaking for a lot of drivers who want this to be clarified. Also most of the officials here in the south don't see this class represent what they thought it would be.

I don't care, i'm building a new car anyway (Ultra 4 atyle) without rear steer for go-fast-stuff, just need to make things clear.
Actually, it is clear. Unfortunately you have only read: improved modified in 3.1.2
You have to read the regulations, and read what's really is writen there.
It has always been free frame in PM.
The only requirement of the body is that it must look like a serial car. Not that it must be a serial body...

I'l paste some writing from ET-regulations 2007:

3.7 TRIAL GROUP PM PROMODIFIED
General information
vehicles should have 2 axles and 4wd. The vehicles body should be identified as a serial produced vehicle. The construction of the Chassis is free.
Use of equipment that are not written in this rules and that will make the vehicle more competitive is forbidden.
3.7.1. Chassis
3.7.1.1 Chassis and/or frame
Free of will

3.7.6.1 Body
The body should be recognized as a serial produced vehicle. The length should be at least from axle to axle.
Hood, body sides, wings front and rear should be present.

Thats 5 years ago...
And the rules are almost exacly the same today. So if someone have build a car the past 5 years and thougt that they must have a original frame and body, it is they who havn't read the rules....

Sorry, but thats a fact...

The problem is - own chassis, own body = Prototype,
As i answered above. The rules have been exactly the same for minimun 5 years...

they have nothing in common with an improved modified as stated in 3.1.2
Then the problem is accuality that it's writen "modified" in 3.1.2
If i take away "modified" and only write "improved" there. Will that be better?

(did someone ever read this?).
Yes.
I write this shit, so...

They are prototypes without rear steer
OK!
The differeences are not that big, but there arre some more.
Active suspension, bigger tires, no wings, tires have not to be covered by flared wings, no rear wheel steering, one-seaters are some.
And of course the body...

Modifieds have to have the original (modified) body and the original (modified) frame.
It's just that it's wrong here...
You may NOT modify the frame in modified. You can only modify the brackets for enginge, gearbox, transferbox, exhaust and cut away the fastenings for yhe bumpers. Thats all....

Lets take the doorbars - who needs them if you have your body from the bottom up to the belt line as per 3.7.2.3? If you have a full body vehicle with half doors - who needs a door bar?
PM don't need doors. And have never need it either. Therefore, the PM must have doorbars.

Lasse suzicán
01-02-2012, 20:51
Lasse, i built a vehicle last year to meet PM regulations and to meet my understanding of what i was told the class should represent.

Tell me what you think about it. Would this pass tech at the eurotrial?

Technical data:
Engine Chevy Big Block 489 cui, fuel injected, approx 650 HP
TH 400
ATLAS II
Dana 60 front Dana 70 rear
Coilover suspension 14" travel
double triangulated 4-link f/r
Antirock Sway Bar f/r
Body stock Jeep YJ, front and rear wheel wells opened
wheelbase stretched to 168 cm
Sabelt 3" wide 4-point harness
40x13.5-17 Goodyear MT/R Kevlar
17 x 9 Rock Monster Wheels
I suppose it's your car on the picture.
And Yes. Allmost all the equipment you said above is allowed in Eurotrial, but i think it would be a little difficult to drive "soft" with 650 HP.
I'm not sure about the tires. Max 1000mm and I don't know the exact size of them. You have to measure them...
If your rollcage is build after the regulations, you have door-bars and the tires size is under 1000mm it would be fine...

Lasse suzicán
01-02-2012, 21:07
Agreed, but we are missing then the logical step between Modifieds an ProMods like i described earlier, the modified with optional suspension, drivetrain and wheelbase.
Drivetrain is already quite free in Mod. The only lilmitation is the type of transfer who must be as serial.
The wheelbase. If you are going to change the wheelbase you must start modify the body because you can't move the axles without cut more than 100 mm in the wheelarches...

@Lasse
Please answer my question, will this YJ pass tech without a doorbar?
I have answered it. I'm only here on the evenings...


BTW: There is one more big difference between Mod and PM.
Modified hav free size of the tires...

SldgHmmr
01-05-2012, 08:42
OK, here are another questions - just to clarify.

How about IFS - is independent suspension treated as an axle? In the rules it says 2 axles .....

What about a rear or mid engine?

xtreme5304
01-05-2012, 12:23
independent suspension should be allowed!

there are several cars with independent suspension as standard, which may also start in all other classes! (lada, vitara, ml, etc.)

Ronny
01-05-2012, 13:07
Syntes promod kasen blei ødelakt da de tok den ut av gul løype. Når de sente promod i svart løype med bare store stein så ble det meningstløst å kjøre med rette aksler. Nå MÅ en kjøre med portaler for å henge med. Den skulle blit i gult spor og enn skulle løsnet litt på karoserikravet. Regelen i deg blir jo en mod bil med portaler. Nå er det strenge karosserikrav i orginal, standar og modifiert så da skulle det vert lettere krav i promod så er det fritt i protto. Trenger flere enn en klasse som det ikke er strenge krav til karosseri i ET sammenheng
Beklager men er ingen reser på å skrive engelsk. kan noen oversette dette

toresailor
01-05-2012, 13:21
Syntes promod kasen blei ødelakt da de tok den ut av gul løype. Når de sente promod i svart løype med bare store stein så ble det meningstløst å kjøre med rette aksler. Nå MÅ en kjøre med portaler for å henge med. Den skulle blit i gult spor og enn skulle løsnet litt på karoserikravet. Regelen i deg blir jo en mod bil med portaler. Nå er det strenge karosserikrav i orginal, standar og modifiert så da skulle det vert lettere krav i promod så er det fritt i protto. Trenger flere enn en klasse som det ikke er strenge krav til karosseri i ET sammenheng
Beklager men er ingen reser på å skrive engelsk. kan noen oversette dette

I believe that the Promod class was ruined when it was moved from Yellow to Black course. When transfering to black course with big rocks, it became impossible to drive with straight axels. Now you NEED to have portal axels to be competetive. The class should have stayed in the Yellow course, and the body requirement should have been "opened" up a bit.
The requirement of today seems to require a modified car with portal axels.

We have strick requirements for body in all the 3 lower classes( original, standard and modified) so there should be less strickt rules for PM and no rules for Proto. We need more than one class without strickt body regulation in ET.

I hope this caught the point in your reply Ronny.

SldgHmmr
01-05-2012, 15:21
Thanks, this is what i think too, seems i'm not alone ;)

Lasse suzicán
01-05-2012, 19:57
OK, here are another questions - just to clarify.

No problem...
It's always better to ask before a build than after.

How about IFS - is independent suspension treated as an axle? In the rules it says 2 axles .....
Of course is a independent axle one axle.
Take for example a VW Golf. It has one independent front axle, not two...

What about a rear or mid engine?
According to the rules today it's allowed. But maybe you have a good point there.
As I know, there is no PM today with mid- or rear-enginge so we should maybe stop this possibility now. Before someone builds one...

Lasse suzicán
01-05-2012, 19:58
independent suspension should be allowed!
It is allowed so that's no problem

SldgHmmr
01-06-2012, 07:52
As I know, there is no PM today with mid- or rear-enginge so we should maybe stop this possibility now. Before someone builds one...

But that's what i plan to do. Why would you not allow mid engine or rear engine?

Lasse suzicán
01-06-2012, 22:20
Hmm!
I think that I have to blame it on age or anything similar...
I know one rear-engine-PM, and it's Swedish...
http://lh6.ggpht.com/-MXB4lb5rxXw/SqGK3HMcYNI/AAAAAAAAAO8/ILgiecVaRWg/Sk%2525C3%2525A5neCupenII-08%252520128.jpg

SldgHmmr
01-07-2012, 10:39
So this means rear or mid engine will stay allowed?

Tommy
01-07-2012, 10:44
how this class has becomed, yes it will still be allowed we will strugle hard to change as litle as possible in the regulation for every class for the future